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	<title>Comments on: on the nature of being human</title>
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	<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/?utm_source=rss&amp;utm_medium=rss&amp;utm_campaign=rss</link>
	<description>Eclectic ruminations on life, love, the universe and everything.</description>
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		<title>By: Jade</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1295</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1295</guid>
		<description>Right, that is totally ironic and an interesting point. I&#039;m sure there&#039;s plenty of ex post facto absolution of guilt for acting in self-interested ways by telling ourselves that it was the rational thing to do. But, I was thinking about it, and I think, even if humans are naturally social, empathetic creatures, I don&#039;t think we&#039;re TOTALLY empathetic. We&#039;re not worker ants or bees servicing the entire colony, where when one dies, all the others feel it. I think personal space and freedom also play an important role in the human psyche and learning to develop a fairly distinct sense of self and some degree of independence is a part of mental health. I think the part that is difficult is finding a way to negotiate the balance between self and other. And not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I think we also have difficulty recognizing our own fears and knowing what to do with them: how much of our anger really stems from fear, how much of our actions are really because in our hearts we are afraid, and how fear shapes not only that we respond, but how we respond. So the minute we begin to fear is the minute we withdraw our compassion and begin rationalizing our subsequent actions.

Hehe...I&#039;m *fond* of them myself, at least when I can&#039;t use italics, which are my favorite. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, that is totally ironic and an interesting point. I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s plenty of ex post facto absolution of guilt for acting in self-interested ways by telling ourselves that it was the rational thing to do. But, I was thinking about it, and I think, even if humans are naturally social, empathetic creatures, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re TOTALLY empathetic. We&#8217;re not worker ants or bees servicing the entire colony, where when one dies, all the others feel it. I think personal space and freedom also play an important role in the human psyche and learning to develop a fairly distinct sense of self and some degree of independence is a part of mental health. I think the part that is difficult is finding a way to negotiate the balance between self and other. And not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I think we also have difficulty recognizing our own fears and knowing what to do with them: how much of our anger really stems from fear, how much of our actions are really because in our hearts we are afraid, and how fear shapes not only that we respond, but how we respond. So the minute we begin to fear is the minute we withdraw our compassion and begin rationalizing our subsequent actions.</p>
<p>Hehe&#8230;I&#8217;m *fond* of them myself, at least when I can&#8217;t use italics, which are my favorite. <img src='http://jadekeller.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>All great points!  I share your interest in many of these questions.  What I find particularly ironic is that, in an age in which science is elevated to priesthood status in terms of the faith we tend to put in its claims, the Hobbesian caricature persists despite abundant scientific arguments to the contrary.  It&#039;s almost as if we&#039;re afraid to *not* believe in the Hobbesian vision.  For, if this vision is false, then suddenly we have no one to blame but ourselves for the poor choices we&#039;ve made.  The Hobbesian view places us at a safe distance from responsibility.  After all, under anarchy, one has *no choice* but to be selfish.  We don&#039;t choose to be selfish any more than we choose to breathe.  Makes it a little easier to sleep at night...

can you tell I like using asterisks for emphasis?  It&#039;s *very* exciting.

=)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All great points!  I share your interest in many of these questions.  What I find particularly ironic is that, in an age in which science is elevated to priesthood status in terms of the faith we tend to put in its claims, the Hobbesian caricature persists despite abundant scientific arguments to the contrary.  It&#8217;s almost as if we&#8217;re afraid to *not* believe in the Hobbesian vision.  For, if this vision is false, then suddenly we have no one to blame but ourselves for the poor choices we&#8217;ve made.  The Hobbesian view places us at a safe distance from responsibility.  After all, under anarchy, one has *no choice* but to be selfish.  We don&#8217;t choose to be selfish any more than we choose to breathe.  Makes it a little easier to sleep at night&#8230;</p>
<p>can you tell I like using asterisks for emphasis?  It&#8217;s *very* exciting.</p>
<p>=)</p>
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		<title>By: Jade</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>Sorry. I meant Wendt, not Moravscik. Don&#039;t know what I was thinking. =}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry. I meant Wendt, not Moravscik. Don&#8217;t know what I was thinking. =}</p>
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		<title>By: Jade</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1290</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 04:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1290</guid>
		<description>Hi Anthony! Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply! You make a very good point about cautioning against reducing human nature to one particular motive and calling all others abnormal or outside any kind of &quot;norm&quot;. I hadn&#039;t thought about it, but I was definitely using imprecise language there. I would have to read the book to determine whether Rifkin does too, though that was the sense that I got from the interview.

To clarify my perspective, I personally am reticent to assume any kind of &quot;rationality&quot; when it comes to people, and common definitely doesn&#039;t mean &quot;normal&quot; or whatever that implies. &quot;Normal&quot; is actually a really problematic word. And beyond having just one trait or even a set of traits, I imagine any important traits also include spectrums of degree (like the masculine/feminine one I mention). However, if empathy is at least an important primary ability and society an important drive, I would still think that humans are incredibly prone and susceptible to fear. And how fear manifests itself can lead to a whole multitude of possible responses that underlie a lot of behavior we see. Throw in trauma of any kind and then the possibilities get even more complex.

But even if it doesn&#039;t all boil down to empathy, I do like to imagine what it would be like if the Hobbesian view wasn&#039;t so dominant. What if we discovered, through scientific evidence, that we&#039;ve been assuming a Hobbesian view of the world and that&#039;s why our politics has manifested itself in the way it has (i.e. principally realist/neo-realist paradigm)? What if we discovered that humans actually do have a more empathetic nature than we&#039;ve assumed and the more self-interested actions have come when social connectivity failed and that it&#039;s actually possible to prevent or minimize that failure? What if we assumed more empathy, how would our personal interactions and, by extension, world politic change? As a fan of Moravcsik and old-school constructivism, it makes me happy to ponder such things. ;)

Thanks so much for your comments and I hope all is going well with you too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Anthony! Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply! You make a very good point about cautioning against reducing human nature to one particular motive and calling all others abnormal or outside any kind of &#8220;norm&#8221;. I hadn&#8217;t thought about it, but I was definitely using imprecise language there. I would have to read the book to determine whether Rifkin does too, though that was the sense that I got from the interview.</p>
<p>To clarify my perspective, I personally am reticent to assume any kind of &#8220;rationality&#8221; when it comes to people, and common definitely doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;normal&#8221; or whatever that implies. &#8220;Normal&#8221; is actually a really problematic word. And beyond having just one trait or even a set of traits, I imagine any important traits also include spectrums of degree (like the masculine/feminine one I mention). However, if empathy is at least an important primary ability and society an important drive, I would still think that humans are incredibly prone and susceptible to fear. And how fear manifests itself can lead to a whole multitude of possible responses that underlie a lot of behavior we see. Throw in trauma of any kind and then the possibilities get even more complex.</p>
<p>But even if it doesn&#8217;t all boil down to empathy, I do like to imagine what it would be like if the Hobbesian view wasn&#8217;t so dominant. What if we discovered, through scientific evidence, that we&#8217;ve been assuming a Hobbesian view of the world and that&#8217;s why our politics has manifested itself in the way it has (i.e. principally realist/neo-realist paradigm)? What if we discovered that humans actually do have a more empathetic nature than we&#8217;ve assumed and the more self-interested actions have come when social connectivity failed and that it&#8217;s actually possible to prevent or minimize that failure? What if we assumed more empathy, how would our personal interactions and, by extension, world politic change? As a fan of Moravcsik and old-school constructivism, it makes me happy to ponder such things. <img src='http://jadekeller.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Thanks so much for your comments and I hope all is going well with you too!</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony C. Lopez</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1289</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony C. Lopez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 00:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1289</guid>
		<description>grrr....  1st paragraph above, last sentence, &quot;...from *which* all others derive&quot;  =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>grrr&#8230;.  1st paragraph above, last sentence, &#8220;&#8230;from *which* all others derive&#8221;  =)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anthony C. Lopez</title>
		<link>http://jadekeller.com/2010/01/on-the-nature-of-being-human/comment-page-1/#comment-1288</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony C. Lopez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 00:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jadekeller.com/?p=822#comment-1288</guid>
		<description>Hey Jade, that&#039;s a really interesting and thought-provoking post.  Definitely over the last half century, evolutionary biologists and cognitive scientists have increasingly overturned the atavistic Hobbesian view of human nature.  Some even contest that there is such a thing as &quot;a&quot; &quot;human nature&quot; in the sense of there being some fundamental motive (whether selfishness, altruism, or something else) that is primary and/or from with all others derive.  

I think you&#039;re right to point out that mainstream historians and news media emphasize the avarice and lust of humanity because of the ability of these things to catch attention and inspire controversy.  So in a sense these images do not capture &quot;normal&quot; human behavior because they obscure the every-day activity of individual life.  Indeed, they catch attention precisely because they are &quot;extra-&quot; ordinary.  But is it fair to say that because historians/media focus on the extraordinary that they therefore represent the abnormal and obscure the normal?  This may be a problematic slippery slope (aren&#039;t slippery slopes problematic in general? :-P), because it almost seems to equate behavior that is common with behavior that is normal, or as you say, &quot;the norm.&quot;  This may further imply that commonality can be a proxy for the &quot;natural,&quot; to the extent that uncommon behavior represents an &quot;aberration&quot; from the &quot;norm of human nature.&quot;  

Putting aside the question of whether violence and greed are more or less common than altruism and empathy (a tall order, methodologically, and it&#039;s not clear what this statistic would tell us anyway) I&#039;ve yet seen any convincing research that suggests that any of these behaviors or corresponding sets of motives are more or less, let&#039;s say &quot;alien,&quot; to the human motivational repertoire than the others.  Yes, we are empathizers, but does this render aggression abnormal?  Yes, we are selfish, but does this mean we don&#039;t care about others?  The tragedy of the human condition may be that the human motivational complex is a network of competing desires and difficult internal tradeoffs; viz. there is no homunculus, no ultimate motive.  The hope of the human condition, as we would both agree, is that we have the capacity to decide that the historians are wrong about our future.  So the more research we uncover that problematizes Hobbesian claims on human nature, the better.  But the failure of Hobbes does not vindicate Rousseau. 

Great post!  I like your space here.  You&#039;re a great writer and I like the variety on your page.  I&#039;ll have to check out the Rifkin book.  Only book I&#039;ve read of his is The Hydrogen Economy.  it was a good read.  Hope you&#039;re doing well, Jade!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jade, that&#8217;s a really interesting and thought-provoking post.  Definitely over the last half century, evolutionary biologists and cognitive scientists have increasingly overturned the atavistic Hobbesian view of human nature.  Some even contest that there is such a thing as &#8220;a&#8221; &#8220;human nature&#8221; in the sense of there being some fundamental motive (whether selfishness, altruism, or something else) that is primary and/or from with all others derive.  </p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right to point out that mainstream historians and news media emphasize the avarice and lust of humanity because of the ability of these things to catch attention and inspire controversy.  So in a sense these images do not capture &#8220;normal&#8221; human behavior because they obscure the every-day activity of individual life.  Indeed, they catch attention precisely because they are &#8220;extra-&#8221; ordinary.  But is it fair to say that because historians/media focus on the extraordinary that they therefore represent the abnormal and obscure the normal?  This may be a problematic slippery slope (aren&#8217;t slippery slopes problematic in general? <img src='http://jadekeller.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /> ), because it almost seems to equate behavior that is common with behavior that is normal, or as you say, &#8220;the norm.&#8221;  This may further imply that commonality can be a proxy for the &#8220;natural,&#8221; to the extent that uncommon behavior represents an &#8220;aberration&#8221; from the &#8220;norm of human nature.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Putting aside the question of whether violence and greed are more or less common than altruism and empathy (a tall order, methodologically, and it&#8217;s not clear what this statistic would tell us anyway) I&#8217;ve yet seen any convincing research that suggests that any of these behaviors or corresponding sets of motives are more or less, let&#8217;s say &#8220;alien,&#8221; to the human motivational repertoire than the others.  Yes, we are empathizers, but does this render aggression abnormal?  Yes, we are selfish, but does this mean we don&#8217;t care about others?  The tragedy of the human condition may be that the human motivational complex is a network of competing desires and difficult internal tradeoffs; viz. there is no homunculus, no ultimate motive.  The hope of the human condition, as we would both agree, is that we have the capacity to decide that the historians are wrong about our future.  So the more research we uncover that problematizes Hobbesian claims on human nature, the better.  But the failure of Hobbes does not vindicate Rousseau. </p>
<p>Great post!  I like your space here.  You&#8217;re a great writer and I like the variety on your page.  I&#8217;ll have to check out the Rifkin book.  Only book I&#8217;ve read of his is The Hydrogen Economy.  it was a good read.  Hope you&#8217;re doing well, Jade!</p>
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