It is time!! Time for our Hunger Games Pow Wow! Are you ready? I can’t emphasize enough how excited I’ve been to hear what you all thought of the books and what they made you think about. Any reactions, impressions, kvetches, complaints, and celebrations welcome!
Last week, I posted a series of questions that I had in my mind as I was reading the books. Feel free to respond to them if you like, or pose questions of your own. And do check back for responses, as I’ll be conversing with everyone in the comments section as well.
Here are the questions I posed last week, for convenient reference:
* All right, up front: Team Peeta or Team Gale?
* How did you read the very end of the book, as depicted in the Epilogue? Hopeful? Bleak? Dubious?
* Do you think it matters that the main character is a girl? How do you think the books might have been different if told from a male perspective (i.e. Peeta’s or Gale’s – or even Haymitch)?
* I’ve seen that these books have been added to Christian high school and bible study reading lists, citing sacrifice as a major theme. Do you see Katniss as a Christ figure? Do you think the books are Christian in nature?
* How do you read her “yes” vote at the end? What do you think was her motivation?
* Did you find the violence of the Games or the violence of the war harder to read? Why?
* Who were your favorite characters and why? Are there any characters you wish had been more fully fleshed out?
* For me, the evolution (or devolution) of character from victim to perpetrator and blurring of lines between the two categories is a really interesting theme in the books. Others have talked about the issues raised regarding classicism and feminism. Were these important themes to you? Did anything else stand out?
* There is a scene about 40% of the way through the third book, where Katniss is playing with the cat, Buttercup, making him chase a flashlight and she has a realization about Snow. Here is the excerpt:
You simply wiggle a flashlight beam around on the floor, and Buttercup tries to catch it. I’m petty enough to enjoy it because I think it makes him look stupid. Inexplicably, everyone here thinks he’s clever and delightful…It’s on the third night, during our game, that I answer the question eating away at me. Crazy Cat becomes a metaphor for my situation. I am Buttercup. Peeta, the thing I want so badly to secure, is the light. As long as Buttercup feels he has the chance of catching the elusive light under his paws, he’s bristling with aggression…When the light goes out completely, Buttercup’s temporarily distraught and confused, but he recovers and moves on to other things. (That’s what would happen if Peeta died.) But the one thing that sends Buttercup into a tailspin is when I leave the light on but put it hopelessly out of his reach, high on the wall, beyond even his jumping skills. He paces below the wall, wails, and can’t be comforted or distracted. He’s useless until I shut the light off. (That’s what Snow is trying to do to me now, only I don’t know what form his game takes.)
Katniss believes this is what Snow is doing to her: dangling bait in a way precisely calculated to drive her crazy and get what he wants. But is Snow the only one to do this? Are there ways in which Katniss does it too?
* And finally, what do you think of Katniss’ decision to assassinate Coin? Was it expedient? Do the “ends justify the means”? What do you think it suggests about her views on power and the role of government? Do you think she believes in democracy, or is she essentially an anarchist?
So tell me: what did you get from the books?
For the record, I was Team Gale. (Although I totally understand her choice in the end and liked Peeta well enough.)
I was Team Peeta! I liked him right away, although I couldn't quite understand how he loved Katniss from when they were little.
I was absolutely, 100% for Gale. He was so much more compelling for me, somehow. More real than Peeta. Harder. Messier.
So true! I liked him because he knew her. Knew what she needed, and who she was. He didn't need to be told how to handle her. I think in the third book, the author tries to distance us from him by making him more radicalized, more extreme. But I wonder if he becomes more radicalized because he knows he's lost Katniss.
I understand that Katniss chose Peeta because she "needed" him. She felt she needed him to provide balance to her anger. At that point, I suppose it makes sense, given how much trauma she has been through. Though how calculating such a decision was about who to love? Just struck me a little cold, like it's all about who can give her what she needs.
Before the ending, I thought Gale was good for her precisely because he pushes her to think about the broader consequences and society in general. (Well, both guys do push her to think more deeply, if it comes to that.) I kept hoping that, together, they would work to make a better society.
I was happy Katniss ended up with Peeta. At first it seems like Gale is the right choice for her because they are so similar. Also, Peeta is just such a better person than Katniss (as many point out, much to her chagrin) that you wonder why Peeta would even bother with someone so selfish and self centered. You hope he moves on. That's why, for me, it was so crucial for Peeta to have his memories of her wiped clean. More than wiped clean, he loathed her and wanted her dead by his hand. Ultimately, he fell in love with the real Katniss, faults and all, rather than the singing girl he worshiped from afar. For me, that had to happen for them to have a mature, lasting relationship built on a level playing field.
Ultimately, I feel Katniss had to end up with Peeta if her character was to show evolution of self. I don't know if Gale is as radicalized as he appears in the 3rd novel. I think he is who he has always been, but as Katniss's character develops and grows, he seems more ruthless. In reality, he has always been the ruthless hunter. It's Katniss who has become radical by changing, by thinking of something other than her own self preservation.
That's an interesting point about how wiping Peeta's memories and having their relationship start more fresh forged the way for a more mature relationship.
Hmm…I'm not sure I saw Gale as just a ruthless hunter. The way I read it, every thing he did was to protect those he loved – all the hunting was to provide for his family, and after Katniss entered the Games, he took care of hers as well. From what I recall, at the very beginning of the first book, he talked a lot about how wrong the Games were and had more of the rebellious spirit and concern for general society I felt was lacking in Katniss. I'm not saying Peeta wasn't ultimately a better choice for her, just that I had been rooting for Gale from the start of the books.
I was team Gale, but my initial reasoning for it is utterly ridiculous.
He's tall dark and handsome and when it comes to blond men this quote from weeds always sticks in my mind where the character Doug Wilson asks "What grown man has blond hair?"
I did like Gale more overall but I'm not really sure why.
I don't think it would have seemed like Katniss was quite so cold in her decision between the two if it hadn't been for her overhearing Peeta and Gale's conversation underneath the store where they boiled her emotions down to that. I think she had stronger feelings for Peeta the entire time she just refused to let herself acknowledge it because she didn't want to even think about getting married.
I too liked Gale for being tall, dark, and handsome.
I kind of felt that she really just had no idea how she felt for Peeta because everything was too wrapped up in the complications of the Games. Her feelings, whatever they were, never had a chance to develop normally. They were thrown together and it's clear she cares for him. I just never got any sense of romantic-love feelings from her (towards either of the guys), and I felt like we can't know if those feelings would have developed otherwise, or if they got hijacked by the trauma of her experiences.
Team Peeta. I didn't mind Gale, but by the end their relationship felt more like siblings to me. They had that shared history, but it didn't really compare to the shared experience she had with Peeta competing in the games.
I also agree that she did fight her feelings for Peeta, perhaps because he was who the Capitol wanted her to be with. Gale was the rebellious choice.
What an interesting point, to think of Gale as the rebellious choice! Hmm…
Jade, I want to answer all the questions! But I will come back later to talk more.
The idea of Katniss as a Christ figure intrigues me, but I don't see it at all. In regards to a sacrificial figure, it would be someone like Peeta, whose goal was to have Katniss be the winner in both games. Mags trumps them both, though! Running into the deadly fog was a true act of sacrifice.
It is a little strange that there wasn't much setup for why Peeta loved her from when they were little! Although, I suppose I didn't question it too much because, one, when we're adolescents we can get infatuated over really superficial things, and two, he did mention the thing about how she'd make birds stop to listen when she sang (like her father, and his mother loved her father for that same reason…or something like that…).
And yeah, I tend to agree with you. I'm having trouble seeing the sacrifice angle. There's her initial sacrifice at the beginning and characters who are honorable in that way…but I'm still not seeing how to map a particularly Christian interpretation onto it.
Right, I didn't see the sacrificial thing, either. I don't think she sacrificed herself for her sister at the beginning out of a sense of justice, but just because she loved her sister. She wouldn't have done it for another little girl (I don't imagine) no matter how helpless. Peeta's sacrifices seem to hit the 'christ' mark a little bit better. He wanted to make a long-term difference in how the game was played and Katniss merely wanted to survive.
I'm bad about reading books like this because I usually completely miss any symbology or underlying themes. I purely seek the pleasure, the escape. I say nothing about feminism or classicism or…anything else. But once the question is raised, I STILL don't see the Christian angle!
I've seen quite a few people say they think Katniss Everdeen is a far better role model for their daughters than Bella Swan (I don't know if you've read or watched the Twilight books/movies?). I'm curious what you think about these characters serving as role models for your girls? (Although, I suppose by the time they come of age, some new characters will be grabbing everyone's attention. I must be behind the times as I'm still rooting for Hermione Granger even though she wasn't the main character…)
* How do you read her “yes” vote at the end? What do you think was her motivation?
I don't think Katniss actually wanted to vote yes to continue the hunger games. I think she voted yes because she knew Coin wanted it and she didn't want Coin to have any clue that they weren't on the same team. Katniss saw the hunger games continuing (if only for 1 year, supposedly), as the continuation of a politics as usual with other districts being oppressed only this time it was district 13 that would be in charge.
Katniss knew Peeta would have no clue in why she was voting the way she was but, she wanted Haymitch to read her mind, to think like her and vote the way she was voting. She had already made the assassination plan up, (maybe only moments before) it was just a matter of making sure she could go through with it
PS- I don't have the books so I can't go back and actually reference them, sorry if I'm not fully flushing this out by memory.
PPS- Jade, this is the biggest question I was curious to see if anyone's opinion differed.
After Katniss shot Coin, I thought to myself, A-ha! So that's why she voted yes for one more year of the Hunger Games. I think she wanted others to see that Coin would be just as dictatorial as Snow. That way, her assassination of Coin would be welcome.
As soon as the second set of silver parachutes exploded, I knew whose plan it had been, and that made me more Team Peeta than ever. I thought that act was more political strategy than necessity of war.
After all the sacrifices for her sister, Katniss ended up losing Prim in the end anyway. Going back to my other comment, that makes her even less of a Christ figure, since Christ's sacrifice bought us everlasting life. Katniss didn't gain anything by being a part of the Hunger Games, except for a couple extra years to Prim's life.
I'd be interested to know–does anyone else think Katniss gained anything by being the victor in two Hunger Games?
Hmm…I hadn't thought about it like that, in terms of what she had gained…I suppose, really, the only thing she gained was the chance to survive.
I agree that it was a ploy to lure Coin out so she could assassinate her. I think her vote "for Prim" is telling because, if I recall correctly, Coin didn't know that Katniss knew who had killed her. So it signifies her intent for retaliation.
I'm really curious about what others thought of the morality of her decision though. Does Katniss have the right to kill Coin? Do we forgive her for it? Do we grant her the authority to make such a decision without the will and consent of the rest of the people?
I forgive her for the decision, I'm not really sure there were any other feasible options that wouldn't have resulted in yet another crazy civil war.
In today's society of course this wouldn't be the right thing to do but, I think it translates to something very close to self defense and defense of the people in her country.
* Did you find the violence of the Games or the violence of the war harder to read? Why?
The violence of war was worse for me… I had a tought time with those scenes in Mockingjay. I'm not sure why, though. One on hand it doesn't make sense because the tributes are being forced to fight each other, where in real life, the soldiers have some degree of choice. But SO MANY people died due to the war, and it wasn't clear how long it would last. At least with the game,
(to finish my thought)… at least with the games, there was a clearly defined finale (i.e., when only 1 is left).
Yeah, I think the war was harder than the Games, maybe because in a way, violence in war is more random, whereas you knew someone was controlling the Games? Does that even make sense? I don't know. Although, by the time I found out she was going to be in the Games a second time in the second book, I was having trouble getting through reading them. I pretty much skimmed the latter half of Catching Fire, and a good portion of the war scenes in Mockingjay.
I never read the books. Can you believe it? Kaish and I went to see the movie. It was thought provoking for certain.
I don't see the sacrificial Christ figure angle. Yes, Katniss sacrificed herself mentally and physically for the greater good as did Christ, but Christ did that of his own volition. Katniss, on the other hand, was duped. If anything, she was a sacrificial lamb.
Yes, I think sacrificial lamb might be more appropriate a reading. Thanks so much for stopping by!
* How did you read the very end of the book, as depicted in the Epilogue? Hopeful? Bleak? Dubious?
I guess closest to dubious, I don't know, I didn't really like the ending. I've thought about it a lot and I don't know that there really wouldn't have been a better way to end the book. I mean how can someone have a perfect ending after having a life like that, but, still, it left me wanting.
I guess it kind of goes back to the lack of romantic development with Peeta, I wanted to know more, to have more of a glimmer of romance. And maybe even to know what Gale was up to those 20 or so years later.
When I read the end of the first book, I thought (hoped) she would take that act of rebellion and, knowing how horrific the Games were, use her position to incite a rebellion, civil war and create a more democratic society. Of course, Snow did complicate things, but I kept hoping she'd be more active in rebelling. Instead, she seems mostly dragged into it by others. By the end of the third book, I'd kind of lost sympathy with her as a character and I was frustrated that she felt she had the right to seek personal satisfaction and revenge (however justified) with apparently little concern or even consult with others. Of course, I wanted Snow and Coin both gone, but I didn't like the way she chose to do it.
But that's all what I wanted emotionally as a reader. I do appreciate the message the author appears to be sending by having written a dystopian novel. I did want to know more though about what society was created in the end and if history might be doomed to repeat itself. The conversation she has at the end with Plutarch was really interesting as he said we have poor memories and a gift for self-destruction. I want hopeful, but Collins gives us very little information to go on, so I think I'm left with dubious.
I'm jumping in super late on this, but I have to say I was absolutely Team Peeta, probably because Peeta reminds me of my own husband with the whole strong, nurturing, protector thing. Which is ironic, because my husband hates Peeta!
That's hysterical, Lucy! I love the whole protector thing Peeta had, too.
i know this isn't really related to anything, but it's what struck me at the end of the series. prim died anyway. the whole thing started because katniss wanted to save her sister, and in the end, prim died anyway. i think that's what convinced katniss that nothing would really change, and is why she wound up killing coin (which i totally didn't see coming, but i also just go along with books i read and don't think too hard…. i like to be surprised when stuff like that happens…).
That's a really good point! I hadn't thought of it like that…I hadn't thought of it in terms of what Katniss's original motivations were…just got annoyed when it seemed like she was dragging her feet through most of the 2nd and especially 3rd books (probably because her motivation wasn't what I kept wanting and expecting it to be).
Thinking about it in those terms…it gives me just one more reason to believe that the ending tends towards bleak and that history is doomed to repeat itself. They're just in a period of calm and saying "We will never do that again!" but that humans are of short memory and intense capacity towards self-destruction and will find some way to go back to being brutal.
Interesting.
And yeah. I totally didn't see the assassination of Coin coming at all either! I had to read that part a few times to make sure I was reading it correctly.